Sat 12 Jul 2008
The Atheist Thirteen Gauntlet
Posted by anaglyph under Atheism, Meme, Religion, Skeptical Thinking
[26] Comments
Regular readers of The Cow will know that I don’t much go in for blog memes, but also that I do make the occasional exception. Yoo has thrown down the The Atheist Thirteen Gauntlet and so, in light of all the current religious insanity in these parts, and my increasing concern that rationality is being eroded faster than a sandcastle in a tsunami, I’m sitting in The Comfy Chair for this one. Mr Parkinson, let the questioning commence:
Q1. How would you define “atheism”?
Well, as I said in comments on my post God Creates Atheists I’m more inclined toward the Wikipedia definition that says that atheism ‘…as an explicit position, either affirms the nonexistence of gods or rejects theism. When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities, alternatively called nontheism’ than the more conservative Oxford Dictionary interpretation that it is ‘the belief that God does not exist’.
I believe that there is no persuasive evidence for the existence of a God or Gods, and no reason to expect that any such evidence is likely to be forthcoming. The Oxford definition implies the need for proof of a negative, which is scientifically foolish, so I try and avoid falling into that particular pitfall. I hold that the likelihood of there being such a creature as God, especially a personal God that has any interaction with me or cares about what I do, is as remote as the likelihood that there are fairies or angels or unicorns.
Q2. Was your upbringing religious? If so, what tradition?
I was raised in an Anglican Christian church-going family and attended church every Sunday until about the age of 15 or 16, if I remember correctly. I sang in the boy’s choir and was ‘Confirmed’. In my teens I also believed that Tarot Cards could tell the future, that the Earth was being visited by aliens and that homeopathy could make my flu go away.
Q3. How would you describe “Intelligent Design”, using only one word?
Subversive.
Q4. What scientific endeavor really excites you?
The work by mathematicians like Stephen Wolfram and Stuart Kauffman on the theories of emergent complexity and their application to the way we understand the world. I am completely fascinated, perhaps to the point of obsession, with this subject. From following their work (which is substantiated by many other lines of research), I agree with them that is possible that very simple rules underpin all the extraordinary, vivacious, astonishing intricacy of the living universe.
(And if one more evangelizing Christian thinks that posing the question “Aha! Yes, but who made the rules!” is clever, or even pertinent, I may very well turn violent).
Q5. If you could change one thing about the “atheist community”, what would it be and why?
Well, I’ll interpret this question a little more widely than it might be intended, if I may, because my own view is that atheism follows on from adopting the basic tenets of proper critical thinking (although I know there are people who would disagree with me on that). So. If I had the means I would give the JREF and people like them billions of dollars in cold hard cash. Religions, especially the legacy religions like Catholicism and to a certain extent Islam, are cashed up in a manner that makes them extraordinarily powerful. The newer Evangelical religions, and whack-job cults like Scientology, are also rapidly gaining ground. Fear is a tremendous motivator when it comes to reinforcing religious belief, but there can be no doubt that in the Great Gears of the Irrational, money is the lubricant. The ‘atheist community’ (whatever that means), and more generally the skeptical community, both need money for education. Education is the best tool with which to fight superstition.
Q6. If your child came up to you and said “I’m joining the clergy”, what would be your first response?
“Here, my child, I’ve had your robes in the closet waiting for this moment. Welcome to the Church of the Tetherd Cow.”
Oh. Sorry, you meant a conventional religion didn’t you? Why would a child of mine ever want to do that? They’re not insane.
Q7. What’s your favourite theistic argument, and how do you usually refute it?
Favourite? Hmmm. Interesting word. It kind of depends so much on definition – Paul Davies, in his book The Goldilocks Enigma, puts up persuasive arguments for some kind of ‘creator’ of our universe, but it’s such a theoretical, distant and, to my mind, entirely inscrutable entity that it recedes into meaninglessness for any practical consideration. It’s a position that is quite literally irrefutable, and as a consequence, interesting to consider, perhaps, but pointless to debate.
As far as arguments for a personal God go, then the best one that I’ve ever had advanced to me came from a dear personal friend who once studied to be a Catholic priest (and who is still quite devout, despite being a gay man and therefore an abomination in the church in which he worships – go figure). This is how he put it (it was much more skillfully rendered than this, so I apologize to him for making it simplistic for the sake of brevity. I think he would agree that the essence is the same):
If your car breaks down (assuming you know nothing of mechanics) you take it to a mechanic who will have the knowledge to diagnose the problem, the ability to tell you what’s gone wrong, and the skill to fix it. You don’t need to understand much at all about the process to be able to get back in your car and drive away happily. What you do have to do, though, is put your trust in someone with more knowledge and skill than yourself in an area in which your expertise is limited. So, says my friend, we should use that same reasoning when it comes to God. In other words he argues that we should listen to those people who have thought more deeply and studied more widely, when it comes to religion, than perhaps we have done. And trust their judgement.
It’s a cogent point of view. And it’s not entirely easy to refute, if you think about it. But its weakness, in my view rests on a problem that besets religions and all other irrational belief systems at their very core. It is this: human beings are so very easily deceived by themselves and others, especially when the payoff is perceived to be high. For instance, if your mechanic does a bad job, your car starts sputtering and groaning and you take it back for another look. It’s pretty obvious, as is the quality of his work. If it keeps happening, you go find another mechanic. But if your priest does a bad job, and screws up the absolution of your sins, how are you ever going to know? “Just trust me,” says your priest – but unlike the mechanic, he is unable to offer you any graspable proof that he’s doing his job to the best of his ability. Or at all. He could be fooling you – how would you know? Worse, he could be fooling himself – how would either of you know…? Of course, he says that he has studied Aquinas and Paley and Hume and Pascal, and you know he speaks fluent Latin and has kissed the Pope’s ring, but really, he is just a human man and as easily deceived as anyone else. As are all the people he has studied. I think you can see where I’m going with this.
And if you think you’re the kind of person who can’t be fooled, you’re wrong.
Q8. What’s your most “controversial” (as far as general attitudes amongst other atheists goes) viewpoint?
I’m not sure what this question’s getting at. It seems to me that the only ‘controversial’ viewpoint an atheist could really hold (among an atheist community) is a belief in something irrational. I try not to hold such beliefs.
(I do maintain that the Earth is hollow and home to a superior race of lizard-like Supreme Overbeings, but that’s obviously a matter of fact, not an irrational claim).
Q9. Of the “Four Horsemen” (Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens and Harris) who is your favourite, and why?
I don’t really do ‘favourites’, but Harris plays to my sensibilities best I guess. Dawkins is a little brash, if completely coherent, Dennett rather rarified, but indisputably eloquent, and Hitchens a little too ‘rock star’ but amusing and credible. Personally, I think we should try very hard not be divisive, but instead use our common strengths to allow us to put forward simple and effective arguments in favour of critical thinking.
Q10. If you could convince just one theistic person to abandon their beliefs, who would it be?
I don’t believe it would make a jot of difference to convince just one theistic person. Think about it: if The Pope renounced God tomorrow, they’d simply replace him, no matter what his reasons or how good an argument he put up. Single people do not make religions. Religions are created by a mass need for belonging. We have to supplant ‘religion’ as the fulfillment of that need with a stronger and greater respect for Humanity on its own terms. We need to outgrow superstition and look squarely into the face of truth. It’s a frightening prospect to embrace. I should know – I did it and it scared the crap out of me, and still does.
But one thing it didn’t do is turn me into an axe-wielding hedonistic anarchistic psychopath with loose morals, bankrupt ethics and a coke habit.
I was already one of those.
___________________________________________________________________________
So there you have it. I’m not going to tag anyone with this – if you feel like it would be helpful to wave the flag, feel free to have at it and let us know.
The giant turtle the earth is riding on is gonna get you.
Colonel: I’m more afraid of the one that he’s standing on.
That’s a great big beautiful brain you have there, Rev.
The issue is:
I could not convince or prove to you there is a higher power, just as you could not convince or prove to me there isn’t.
So, the old stalemate between Theism and Atheism continues for all enternity.
We humans are funny, we are to vain and sentient to think we just evolved and life has no higher purpose.
And then of course we will all be fooled with the Great Old One rise from Ry’leh
Thanks for picking up the gauntlet, and your post almost met my expectations, but I have issue with one of your statements.
Everyone knows that the Earth cannot be hollow; the Earth is flat, it’s not some 3-dimensional shape!
Oops, wasn’t being anonymous on purpose. ^_^;;
<a href=”http://drmurksworld.blogspot.com/2008/07/interview-with-athiest.html”You will enjoy debating with this one
Whoops sorry about that
I must suggest to all Christians and Atheist to read this book “The End of Reason” by Dr. Ravi Zacharias. This book forces the reader’s mind to do the critical thinking that is so lacking in Christianity today. It should also be considered required reading for the atheist who has never really looked at a logical argument for the existence of God, or the Christian who has never really critically analyzed his own faith. Check out more information on The End of Reason here
Malach:
It’s not up for debate. Even if the entire world of facts crashed down upon my head, I know what I’ve seen and I know what I am.
Athiesm is a perfectly understandable reaction to a cruel world. I don’t argue with instinct. If I had any physical proof of a god I’d offer it.
Unfortunately, there are bad people everywhere and any belief system, even one based in fact, can be used to manipulate others.
Cow,
How about we make a bet. If you’re wrong, I get your house in heaven. If you’re right… well then nothing will happen.
As was once pointed out to me: All you need to know.
Malach: >>We humans are funny, we are to vain and sentient to think we just evolved and life has no higher purpose.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with vanity. In fact, if vanity was in play at all, I would hold exactly the opposite view; that it is to vain for human beings to think that, for some reason, that they are the epitome of ‘creation’ in a world that is full of such extraordinary beauty and novelty. How utterly pretentious to assume that ‘God’ holds above all others a creature that spends its time methodically wiping out all His other creatures and desecrating the beauty of His work! How utterly vain to suppose that there is some kind of God, whose mind you can never know through His very definition! Indeed, how vain does one need to be to accept any one God above all the other possible Gods (as almost every existing religion has required)!
As for ‘higher purpose’, what the does that mean, really? How can you, or anyone else, make any kind of argument for what a higher purpose is, or whether there is even any reason to suppose one? Excuse me for saying, but that’s just complete baloney. And why the very dismissive …’just evolved’…? Evolution is a beautiful and elegant process, full of richness and surprise.
The ‘stalemate’ between Theism and Atheism is not, as you suggest some kind of ‘eternal’ struggle, but is in fact a relatively recent artifact of a situation in which a scientific and rational view of the world is displacing (or at least attempting to displace) a superstitious one. History shows us that science and religion were once pretty much the same thing; ‘science’ was, not so long ago, a facet of of the religious attempt to explain a mysterious and perplexing world. We see science these days as separate from religion because it has tried to give us some tools to avoid invoking the ‘I Dunno – That’s Just the Way God Made It’ clause, which does nothing to give us an insight into the workings of our world. I wager that there are some scientific claims that, although once the domain of religion, you might just accept help us understand a little better where we fit in the universe: like, oh, that the stars are not just holes in the the Great Dome of the Firmament through which the Holy Light of Heaven shines. Or that the sun is not a fiery chariot drawn through the sky by giant flying horses. Or that yawning is caused by the Devil so that he might steal your soul.
Maybe you do still believe those things? If you believe in some kind of Supernatural Father Who Watches Over Us All, then you may as well – it makes about as much sense.
>>I could not convince or prove to you there is a higher power, just as you could not convince or prove to me there isn’t.
Well that depends on the rules. If you agree not to invoke the Argument by Faith (and accept immediately when you fall back on it that you’ve broken the rules) then I believe I can easily convince you that the likelihood of the existence of a personal God, who cares a fig for what happens to you, is extremely remote. On the other hand, if your definition of God is some inscrutable being who for reasons unknowable to us set the Wheels of the Universe in motion and cares not a whit what happens (or has a Plan also beyond our ken), then no, as I stated above, I can make no argument to refute that. It’s merely a point of philosophy. But honestly, I just can’t see the need to suppose such a being. It seems entirely pointless to me. Why not suppose instead that the whole of Creation, including you and all your perfectly formed memories, was not just brought into existence yesterday morning at ten o’clock? It’s just as likely, and equally as logical.
Yoo: OK, very well, I’ll concede your point. Then the Earth is a Big Flat Rock that the Lizard People live underneath.
Matt: Thanks for stopping by. As far as The End of Reason is concerned:
>> It should also be considered required reading for the atheist who has never really looked at a logical argument for the existence of God,
There is NO logical argument for the existence of God. I’m sorry – God is by definition supernatural, and by definition defies human understanding or logic. By all means, believe in God – just don’t try and use rational argument to convince me, or yourself, that He/She/It exists. It is simply not possible.
Murk: Yes, you understand the point. And sure, you can have my house in heaven. Unfortunately, if there is such a place, that’s a dud bet because I’m bound for the sub-basement.
Atlas: Succinct.
Er…
I just wondered if anyone else saw the vision the the man in the dress, who sometimes wears silly hats, tripping about in high heeled RED slippers?? Am I dreaming or is this the answer to all my questions?
On the other hand, my invisible friend is very well superior to his/her invisible friend.
meggie: We left Kansas a l-o-n-g while back…
It is sad, you must repent, living in a evil country like Australia does not help, no, no. The Pope is here to save you, he is!
I’ve never liked the Atheist tendency to say that their particular belief system is not a religion. It reminds me of every other member of every other religion saying the same thing.
To be Glitch’s advocate for a minute.
A person could say that Atheism is just a more pretentious version of Naturalism or some such thing. A lot of your writing on the natural universe borders on worshipful and your justification of rationalism borders nicely on evangelism.
The fourth definition of the word religion in my American Heritage Dictionary (all I got on me today), is “…a cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.”
I know I don’t see myself as religious, but I can also say that I fit that definition very much. My religion would be the natural universe as a cause, empathy as a cause, rationalism as a principle, and hypothesis and experiment as my activity. Of course I persue all with conscientious devotion.
In that, I think I am one of the most religious people I know. And, since we’re playing here, I think you are too.
All that being said, I do not believe in the supernatural whatsoever.
I have a test that proves my aetheism is not analogous to religion:
a) “I do not believe in God.”
b) “I do not believe in the tooth fairy.”
c) “I do not believe in Zeus and Apollo living on Mt Olympos.”
Why should one of those statements be different to the others?
But I am in AWE of the high-heeled red slippers!
Popey: May I suggest, that since you’re already in possession of the frock and the red shoes, that you might like the Kings Cross & Oxford St area of Sydney. I think you might find a lot in common with the locals.
Casey: Well, there are varying semantic levels at play in what you say. I consider myself an atheist, or to be more accurate a ‘non-theist’, principally because I see no reason to postulate a Supreme Being or Creator of the things we see. In other words, I don’t believe that the universe as set in motion according to some unknowable plan, by some unknowable intellect.
I don’t find evidence to believe it, which is very different from me saying that I can prove that it isn’t so. It just seems unlikely, given the things we are able to observe rationally with the faculties we have.
So, having said that, as I pointed out in the difference between the two definitions I gave above, my atheism is not a belief system, but rather the absence of one.
Indeed, I don’t hold a ‘belief system’ at all, as such. What I do say is that the best way to approach some sensible apprehension of the universe is with the soundest unbiased observations we can bring to bear, which, I suggest, is by using science. Note also that science, despite the view that many people seem to hold of it, is not a belief system. Science is a method that seeks procedure to try and iron out ‘belief’ and make assessments based on what we can all (no matter what our ‘religion’) agree is reasonable. For instance: Hindus, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Sufis, the Taliban, Shi’ites, Creationists, Buddhists, the Pitjantjatjara, Baha’i and practitioners of Voudon don’t agree on much, but I think we can assume they all accept that the Bernoulli Principle works. It’s not something you can dispute based on your ‘belief’ (well I guess you could, but you would then be considered mad). Aeroplanes are not kept in the sky by scientific belief but by rules of physics that scientists have described, understood and turned into something we can use to alter our way of interacting with the world.
More concretely, and perhaps more in line with the way most people (certainly Americans) take the concept of atheism, as I’ve already said, I absolutely reject the notion that there is some kind of personal God who is at all concerned with me or you or anybody else. This seems to me untenable on pretty much any level you can nominate. And, as I said to Malach above, I think I can put forward pretty convincing arguments that such a God is completely unlikely, to anyone who will listen thoughtfully and who agrees not to play the Faith card. On purely rational terms, no-one can make a reasonable case for such a God. It is simply nonsense.
My zeal for the natural world is not ‘worshipful’ in the sense that most people would understand, and I know you don’t intend it that way. It is true that I find our existence extraordinary, but then, so should anyone. That things exist, and that we experience them, is cause for great wonder. Wonder is not the exclusive right of religion, just as religion has no exclusive rights on ethics, morals or awe. I am, I concede, something of an advocate (I dislike the word ‘evangelism’ since its roots are in Christianity via the Greek) for rational thinking, simply because it has served me much better throughout my life than brainless acceptance of the baseless beliefs of others. And everywhere I look I see people falling for that schtick, whether it be homeopathy, iridology, clairvoyance, Spiritualism, crystal healing, colloidal silver enemas, Scientology, alien abductions, supernatural resurrections, faith healing, magical amulets, magnetic ‘therapies’ or lovely magical lands to inhabit when you die.
Humans are sucked in by flim-flam generation after generation after generation. Rational thinking skills are the only defense against such morally bankrupt garbage.
But here’s the crux: you can live a life with highly-developed rational thinking skills that is full and rich and colourful and enjoyable and engaging and full of love and family and beauty. You lose nothing just because you use your brain.
Pil: >c) “I do not believe in Zeus and Apollo living on Mt Olympos.
It’s a good point, and one that modern religions cannot in any effective way negate. If religions are based on durability, then the Christians & the Jews & the Muslims have got a mighty long way to go before they even approach the longevity of the Egyptian or Sumerian religions for a start. So what, in fact, makes them any more ‘worthy’?
I would argue: ‘Nothing’. In fact, this conundrum poses quite some problems for Christianity which has to jump through hoops to explain why God would create a bunch of civilizations with no knowledge of Him, and then eliminate them from the face of the Earth. These kinds of religious non-sequiturs should be cause for deep contemplation if you are a practising Christian, and yet, no Christian advocate has ever given me an explanation for this problem without evoking the ‘Mysterious Ways’ clause.
It is, quite plainly, another enormous fracture in an already dilapidated building.
Dude, your new profile icon pic is scray as hell. I liked the old one better. Had that voo doo comforting skelatal look to it that reminded me of Mardigra for some reason. This one just kinda bugs me out. Can you go back to being skelator….that was pretty sexy.
Although watched Hell Boy last night to freshen up for the next one coming out next month and he had that same look while his horns grew out while almost unleashing evil all over the planet, but he fought it and went back to his cute and adorable red monster look. Personally, I think he is rather hot…both figuratively and literally.
I really did like the voo doo skelaton on you much more…it just fit. I know…girly puppy love stuff. I think the red eyes just do it in for me. Don’t mind the horns, just the damn eyes.
So how is the Catholic Carnaval going down there? I have seen it mentioned on the news a few times up here. You poor bastards. Just hide till it passes. It will pass, like a kidney stone, but it will pass.
You’re trying to convince me to change the new pic because it is too creepy?
Mwahahahaha.
Stick around and it will inevitably (eventually) change to something else. Sexy/spooky/creepy/kooky – who can say? Certainly not me, I obviously have no idea of what women like.
As for the Catholic Carnival – it left our town last week and went to Sydney. I actually don’t have a clue what they were doing down here, aside from congregating in big groups and doing the usual offensive active evangelizing. I have a great pic of a bunch of Polish Catholics waving their big red flag under the amused eye of a Vedic Goddess on a nearby giant video screen. I’ll put it up for the next post, shall I?
The use of evangelism is just my own regression to my Christian upbringing. I think, though, that it works well, and I think I mentioned on Jill’s blog once that I considered it the job of any artist to evangelize the beauty. I think the easiest way to evangelize that beauty and worship (loosely following definition) the physical world is to sacrifice your own bullshit and your own bias and dogma on the alter of hypothesis and experimentation. The scientific method is nearly infallible, which is more than any translation of any book can rationally claim.
And good job on the Bernoulli argument. I love any time his name comes up. His principle is a good example of how physical laws are transcendent.
The morality argument of the theistic people irritates me. That is the weakest proof for God that I have yet heard. It’s basically saying God exists because we need him to. That reverses the roles of human and diety nicely. And they don’t seem to get it. Just because I’m in no fear of hell does not mean I’m no longer a functioning moral being. Now, those morals are held to higher standard now than they were when they were simply dictates of people who talked to God on a regular basis. Now, my morals have to pass the test of objectivity. Meaning, I have to justify the existence of that belief.
For instance: do not murder.
I don’t. It makes no sense. Humans have been selected down to the individuals that value their fellows (most of the time), so there must be some reason for it. The reasons I can spot most easily is the lack of reprisal. If I don’t murder anyone, or at least avoid it as much as possible, I have nothing to fear in the revenge department.
Basically, the Golden Rule makes rational sense for every decision from whether or not to pirate music to whether or not to rape someone’s daughter and cut out her tongue. It’s all the same.
Respecting all living things is another moral I can pretty solidly defend.
I always saw rationalism as a crucible and reason as the fire. A lot of chaff has found its way out of my head when I have the reason fire stoked. And no matter how I have applied it, from women to God, rationalism has yet to cause me any pain. Faith on the other hand has fucked me hard a couple of times.
Morality is certainly not governed by religion. Morality is governed by consensus. The problem is, religion has by and large had the monopoly on moral process for such a long time that most people think that religion and morality are intertwined. But if you think about that it’s quite absurd – thousands of different cultures have survived for long periods of time with religions (and therefore religiously governed morals) that are way different to what we would consider acceptable now. So how, then, can any particular religion lay claim to absolute moral guidance? It’s a laughable conceit. Just as it is for any particular religion to claim that it is ‘The One True Way’ (which, again, most of them do).
As for the Bernoulli example, I hope it demonstrates to religiously inclined people who might be reading, how science differs from faith. The principle of fixed-wing flight is understood in sufficient depth that we are able to make decisions based on its science on which we will trust our lives, and which we all agree, regardless of creed or morality, works. Planes are not kept in the air via some kind of supernatural decree.
Show me any one religious tenet that holds so well across so many ‘belief systems’!
>>Basically, the Golden Rule makes rational sense for every decision from whether or not to pirate music to whether or not to rape someone’s daughter and cut out her tongue. It’s all the same.
To which I would add that it makes very little difference if ‘religion’ is involved.
Talk schmalk.
I believe there is milk in my neighbor’s fridge even though I’ve never looked there. I believe there are penguins in Antarctica even though I’ve never seen them.
There isn’t much else to say on those deep thoughts.
But saying you believe in an omniscient invisible being… we could blog forever and get no forwarder. Let’s just think of the penguins and get back to reality.
Pil:
>>we could blog forever and get no forwarder. Let’s just think of the penguins and get back to reality.
Sure, but in my humble opinion, the belief in the omniscient invisible being is not taking us forwarder – it’s really taking us backwarder particularly rapidly considering where we are as a species. Two fundamentalist ‘superpowers’ playing with their fiery toys could send us all back to the Dark Ages mighty quick.
I guess the penguins wouldn’t give a fig, but your neighbour mightn’t have a fridge to stick her milk in.